Best Portfolio Management Schemes in India

I believe I’ve filtered through all the good Portfolio Management Schemes in India as of August 2016 mid-2018, at least all those that have a value focus. If you think I have missed any, do please let me know in the comments below & I will be happy to study it. [See section below “Why XYZ PMS is not on this page]

An investment in a good mutual fund or PMS ought to be thought of as a generational investment, i.e something you do not ever touch (except add or pour excess savings into) and pass on to your children. Constant tinkering, grass-hopping and chasing returns is dangerous.

Too much info is a bad thing, so I’m only including the top few here below.  Let’s say you are ready to set aside funds for the long haul, what are your (best) options?

SIMPL (Ravi Purohit), Vallum (Manish Bhandari), Equity Intelligence (Porinju Veliyath), Motilal Oswal (Manish Sonthalia), and SageOne (Samit Vartak). Please do not extrapolate these past returns into the future.

Please see the below section on managing your return expectations.

* There is a second table on these Funds under a Volatility header, toward the end of this page.

How to Manage your Return Expectations

This section is actually an excerpt from a longer post “How to Manage your Return Expectations” but I’ve inserted it here because it may simply never be read, and ought to be read immediately after any  tabulation of impressive returns.

Chasing returns is fraught with danger. We tend to chase because by nature we extrapolate time series. What happened in the past “must” happen in the future, or so we hope. Because a particular person/fund/manager had their portfolio return a certain rate over 2-3-5 years, we expect our very enrollment in that fund should start, the very next month, the “inevitable” time series that the past numbers implicitly “promised”.

Past returns are helpful to understand why some manager(s) may have had a) excellent security selection (the “right” businesses, at the right/bargain prices), b) the right proportions (having 1% of their fund go up 3x does not move the needle), and c) the role of luck. Any honest / self-critical fund manager will admit the help of the final ingredient.

Past returns tell us that the building blocks for relative out-performance exist with that fund manager.

Long periods of out-performance may well be followed by periods of underperformance. Some of the best value investors in the world exhibit this pattern. It is worth asking yourself – are you mentally prepared to stay calm & do nothing especially during the (inevitable) periods of underperformance? or have you created in your mind the (unrealistic) expectation that your fund manager(s) can never underperform & should consistently and always be outperforming a) the relevant benchmark & b) every other fund manager you know?

So when we invest with a fund, the first thing we should be doing is setting very realistic return expectations for ourselves – over a long period of time (ideally 5-10+ years). This is crucial to avoid a) disappointment & b) shopping behavior (my fund only returned X%, I know of a fund which did X+Y% – I should therefore switch)

Developing conviction in the wisdom & abilities of your fund manager(s), before you invest – is essential.

That said, what are “realistic return expectations”?

If I invest in one of the PMS services I respect, I would expect some outperformance relative to mutual funds & would set my bar at 20% p.a.

{remaining sections removed; full article is here here}

When in doubt, stay conservative. Between longevity of reasonable returns and potentially high returns which may fizzle or worse, hurt –  we are always better off with the former.

Here’s a brief review of the 5 PMS offerings below.


Securities Investment Mgmt Pvt Ltd (SIMPL)

The fund has a simplistic website with only the bare essentials on it – the PMS disclosure doc and their presentation.

The founder of SIMPL is Rajshekhar Iyer, ex-head of Equity research at KOTAK. He pioneered a value investing newsletter in India in the 90s, and is highly influenced by Graham & Dodd. Mr. Iyer managed money for friends & family for about two decades before formally establishing itself as a PMS (which was in late 2009). It is currently run by Ravi Purohit. I came to know about the fund because I follow Sanjay Bakshi, one of the leading lights of value investing in India, and a few years ago Prof. Bakshi invited Ravi to share the stage with him presenting a case study of an incredible footwear company to his MBA students. Interestingly, Prof. Bakshi also wrote articles for Mr. Iyer’s newsletter back in the day.

Ravi has ~90% of his networth invested in the fund, and of the 268+ crores (figure likely to now be dated) being managed by SIMPL, about 30% is from the Iyer family; the disclosure doc would have the exact figures).  The point is – alignment of interests, a common theme you will find across these PMS offerings. This is a very skilled, conservative (Seth Klarman-inspired) PMS option.


Vallum Capital

This is the best-performing PMS in India in the ~4.5Y window from Oct’11 through Mar’16. It is the “youngest” PMS of the four I’ve shortlisted, but likely the easiest to get comfortable with because Manish makes his thought-process open to the public on his blog “Valuenomics“. He frequently shares what he’s reading, and has even posted his fund’s annual letters online. If you are considering them, it may be worthwhile reading through them all.

There’s an interview of Manish Bhandari on Youtube. Transcript.

I’ve read all the posts on his fund’s blog, and they make for very interesting reads. His piece on real estate “The End game of speculation in Indian Real estate have begun” (August 2013) is one of the most solidly researched & elegantly laid-out arguments on this subject I’ve read.

Vallum is primarily a mid-cap focused PMS, with some small-cap investments as well. They tend to have half their portfolio in contrarian/business turn-around opportunities and the other half in “growth-at-a-reasonable-price”. They’ve made quite a few excellent calls over the last ~5 years which have contributed to the superior performance of their fund.

Their investment approach (as I see it) is closest to the one espoused by the fund managers of Marathon Asset Management [UK].

“At the heart of Marathon’s investment philosophy is the capital cycle approach to investment.  It is based on the idea that the prospect of high returns will attract excessive capital (and hence competition), and vice versa.  In addition, an assessment of how management responds to the forces of the capital cycle and how they are incentivised are critical to the investment outcome.”

Manish has the highly esteemed Sankaran Naren as a mentor and guide [always important to know / note who people look upto or have learned from] A substantial effort is made to find opportunities where one does not pay too much for growth (emphasis on contrarian opportunities & supply side mechanics). For more on this, consider reading the excellent book Capital Returns.


Equity Intelligence

Porinju Veliyath runs Equity Intelligence, based out of Kochi. He’s posted about ~32% a year since 2003 (~15 years at the time of this writing).

This is an extraordinary rate of return vs any kind of benchmark – sensex/nifty/inflation and, more – it is over a very long period, crucially, covering the 2008-9 crisis during which any fund manager could have been down between 30-60%.

He doesn’t care for moats or great management quality. He is often looking for turn-arounds, deep bargains or futuristic businesses (example : FCEL). He often “talks his book” on Twitter and TV.

One thing to note is accessibility (to the fund manager) is very low. I don’t know about MOSWL, but with the other PMS managers listed here, you can typically schedule a call with the manager and ask to understand a particular position’s thesis in detail. The same does not hold here. On the client relations front this fund is quite poor.

In 2018, the fund has gotten hammered as 1) they tend to hold no cash position, 2) invested 100% of received funds at every point in the late 2017-early 2018 cycle & 3) had a concentrated portfolio (10-12 positions) with the wrong strategy of business selection. To his credit, the fund manager has publicly acknowledged that his firm has had a bad year. One may reasonably expect though, that someone who has had a strong record over a long period of time will at some point resume the strong record. How long the recovery takes is anybody’s guess.

You can write to EQ and get their latest presentation or read about the fund and their disclosure doc.

[Update : mid-Sep’17 : min was 25L for most of 2016, was upped to 50L sometime in 2017].


Motilal Oswal – Value PMS

I’ve written about this company here. One thing I can vouch for is the company scores very high on integrity; the founders have a very long-term focus, and truly get value investing. Of course the CEO is not the fund manager of the PMS, but because it is a “flagship” product for HNW clients, I would imagine it would have considerable periodic oversight in terms of strategy and direction. Manish Sonthalia (the fund manager) isn’t on Twitter, but he’s written a lot in the past & he’s been interviewed on TV many times (see YouTube for this). Just as with Porinju’s PMS, this PMS has been around for a while and one must appreciate its excellent ~25% annual returns in the context of a 15 year period (>28x, net of fees)

Here’s an interview of Sonthalia with Mr. Damani [Oct’16]

Their site has a lot of material if you wish to consider investing with them.


SAGEONE

As part of my learning process, I followed Samit on Twitter, and read all the quarterly/annual newsletters from their site.  Samit, was also interviewed by Vishal of SafalNiveshak, who conducts probably the best interviews of investors that I’ve come across. My impression is Samit is very humble, level-headed & thoughtful.

I attended the 2017 Asia-focused Value Investing 2017 conference put together by Shai Dardashti & John Milhaljavic [who run The Manual of Ideas]. Over an hour and half, Samit presented an investment idea & Shai asked a whole lot of first-rate questions. My takeaway is that the depth of their ‘homework’ is excellent. Later that year, Samit presented the idea (Balkrishna Industries) in India at IIC 2017. Video link here. Samit also presented at IIC 2018.

If one really wants to know about their investing process, there’s plenty of good material online.

I actually had their India Growth fund on my radar since 2015. This has a $100K min, and has achieved  ~34% annualized in USD terms from Apr’09 – Feb’17. Back then, there was no way for resident Indians to invest in it. It was domiciled out of Singapore, and only HNIs who were not residents of India could invest.

SageOne launched its domestic PMS offering only in Jan ’17 & as of May ’17 upped their min investment from 50L to 2C. By Oct’17 they stopped taking new monies as they were not finding opportunities interesting enough to deploy fresh capital. They opened up their window again in May’18.

They tend to lean towards higher quality names with strong cashflow visibility. Some of these have been wealth-creators in the past 5-7 years. If you write to SageOne & ask, they’ll share with you their PMS deck which mentions some of them.

They do have a fixed-fee option, which I like. If you expect a significant outperformance, you’re better off avoiding a performance-based fee structure & choosing a flat fee structure. Currently, only SageOne & MOSWL offer this option.


 Update on ticket sizes

Motilal Oswal & Vallum had a 25L min, SIMPL & Equity Intelligence are all now 50L min, and SageOne just transitioned from 50L to 2C. Equity Intelligence is likely to upsize min to 2C at some point. There’s a steady & rising re-allocation of Indian savings into equities, a long-term secular trend that is here to stay.


On Volatility

 

 

 

 

 

The volatility column here is worth your attention if you are considering these managers. MOSWL by virtue of its composition (significant % being large-cap) will have the least volatility amongst these options. EI, because it focuses on special situations and turn-arounds, and because they invest in smaller companies, will naturally have higher volatility. SageOne, because it invests in higher quality names with strong cashflow visibility will have low volatility (but not as low as MOSWL, because the companies are typically mid-caps, not large-caps). You should anticipate in advance how bumpy your ride is going to be, and how much discomfort you are willing to be OK with.

While Volatility is not a way to measure Risk, you as a potential investor have to decide for yourself what level of volatility you can live with. If you have been invested in equities for a number of years, you would have likely had the experience of seeing painful declines. If you have not, then it is safe to assume that your stomach is still to be tested 🙂 The longer your time horizon for being invested in equities, the less relevant volatility becomes.


why xyz pms is not on this page

Note to future readers:  have received several comments, on and off this page asking why XYZ PMS is not on this page, Orr my opinion on XYZ PMS and if ‘it is good’. I’m flattered, but please do note – my intent has been to find the best PMS options which satisfy many criteria – some of which are

1) have a value approach, 2) you can find out something about the fund manager(s) either through their interviews, or writings or letters (important) 3) have at least a 5-year track record (ideally longer), 4) some sense of the alignment of interests etc.

If you feel that XYZ PMS does meet at least the above 4 criteria, and there is good reason it should be listed among the best, please let me know. (Else, ignore)

You are of course welcome to pursue any PMS that meets your own criteria; this page is not meant to advertise the above PMS options but rather to list those funds/options which met my own subjective criteria – in the hope that it may be of use to others who may have similar filters.


Of Interest

How heavily back-loaded compounding is : my note on the power of compounding.

My note on Why Equities, and why India?

Comparing FDs, Real Estate & Gold

The Purpose of Money

178 thoughts on “Best Portfolio Management Schemes in India

  1. Santosh says:

    Hi , very useful information, thanks for the research and publishing it. Does this article still hold good in today’s times considering your research was based on data till Aug 2016

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Ajay Jain says:

    Hi,

    You have mentioned 50L under SageOne but their website says minimum investment is 2 Crores. Also, do you know how an NRI can invest in the Sage one india growth fund? The minimum investment in the growth fund is $100K which is almost a third of the 2 crore for the PMS. lastly, does the PMS & growth fund follow the same portfolio?

    By the way, had been looking for such an article for a long time that provides inputs into decent value investing based PMS in india. Bfore the 2008 crash, most PMS just ripped off the investors by extra churning and gave the PMS industry a bad name. The names you have mentioned have all been on my radar when i started looking but somehow love SageOne’s newsletters & their deep thinking.

    Liked by 1 person

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Ajay,

      you are right, and thanks for pointing out the updated #, I’ll update the page. SageOne did have a 50L min, but looks like that only lasted Jan-Mar of ’17. They probably got more interest than they needed & decided to up the threshold to manage fewer clients.

      If you are an NRI, you can write to them & ask them for the detailed process to invest via the USD option. It is probably ‘cleaner’ from a taxation perspective to be invested with them through their LP (vs PMS). Essentially, with a $100k investment, you will be granted a partnership share in their fund (this is much easier for them to manage vs 100 clients’ separately managed accounts). Every April, a couple of weeks before the US deadline, you’ll receive a K-1 from SageOne which you pass on to whoever is doing your taxes. As this is a passive, private fund over which you have no discretionary control, your US firm’s compliance department will have no issues clearing the investment. You also need to declare the investment to FBAR etc so you are fully disclosed to Uncle Sam.

      Yes it is one cohesive strategy. There is a slight difference on minimum market-caps allowed in the PMS but otherwise identical. Maybe give them a call & have a chat to iron out any questions you may have.

      Thanks

      p.s: I also considered the Malabar fund (Sumeet Nagar & co) but 1) they have a $500K min (ouch!) & 2) SageOne has done way better. FWIW, you can write to them & ask for their deck, certainly instructive.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ajay Jain says:

      Hi,

      Looking into the April issue of sageone’s report, they have also got in principle approval for an AIF. Do you have any details on that?

      Regards,
      Ajay

      Like

      • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

        Hi Ajay,

        Yes I believe it is Live now.
        I wasn’t keen on it but you can email their IR & they’ll send you a deck with all the details.

        In principle, a separately managed account (PMS) should have a higher threshold / minimum corpus than a fund (AIF). The AIF is simply a large pool mirroring approximately their client portfolios and therefore wayyy more easy to administer from their point of view. Min 1Cr, with comparable fee structure to the PMS. Btw, the Malabar fund also has an AIF option.

        Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Harneet, Alchemy’s site unfortunately had very little info (no letters, & an email I sent requesting for info went unanswered). All my search was done using publicly available information. There are a few interviews of Hiren & Lashit on youtube, but best if you examine for yourself if you are impressed by their thought process etc, I simply did not have enough information to make any study of Alchemy.

      Like

  3. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Hi – What is your thinking about capmetrics. Purnaartha. ? Also I founf Equity Intelligence performance very encouraging as they have gone through all the hurdles in the market and consistent high returns. I am requesting the US materials from sageone and will decide. THanks

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Bijay. I haven’t included Purnartha under PMSs because they are a little different. You do need to be a bit more hands on, and do the transactions on your own.
      They are a very focused shop : 4-5 names. See the interview of Rahul Rathi on youtube.
      They have a lot of resources, so they spend a lot of time on due diligence. Recently when Ujjivan’s business came under stress due to the DeMo situation, they actually sent under-cover folks to various branches of Ujjivan to test the resiliency of their credit underwriting standards. You can also listen to this call here : http://www.purnarthawealth.com/discussion-ujjivan-finance-q4-results-conference-call-recording/

      Porinju’s EI is of course excellent. He has a knack for picking companies where he pays little to nothing for growth – and builds a huge margin of safety from that. Then waits for market to get the fundamentals right.

      Like

  4. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Also I am a US Citizen now. Investing in India comes with huge reporting and taxation requirements. Do we have any other suggestions other than sageone. Thanks Bijay

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      There’s ValueQuest of course but I believe the min there is now $1M.
      SageOne, imho, is a steal at $100K. There are funds which ask way more & have a lot less to show. SageOne is a very disciplined shop, and simplifies your US reporting because you get a K-1 in April so that’s literally 80% of your work done – just give that to your tax filer.

      Being a US citizen is not a roadblock, esp not if you have an OCI card. Porinju’s EI will still let you invest with them, though their own reporting & regulatory work for your account will be a pain so they may have to increase the minimum to justify taking on new money. They aren’t chasing money.

      While you Can, most certainly, invest under your name in India, you will have to file an FBAR (or have your tax person help do it for you) every single year. If you have the traditional full-trust relation with your family, you can simply wire funds to one of them, and have them invest on your behalf.

      If you stay invested for let’s say the next 10 years, that’s 10 years of stress-free reporting holiday from the US. Your family member has to continue filing taxes in India of course (de-minimus).
      If you later want to bring the money back to the US for whatever reason, that’s a 1-time reporting headache (vs a 10Y hassle).

      There are US-based mutual funds investing in India, but none that I know of have a value focus & none have managers that I admire. Also hard to know how much skin-in-the-game they have (vs simply earning a fee on a large AUM & being essentially asset gatherers with a certain geographic focus).

      p.s: I also considered the Malabar fund (Sumeet Nagar & co) but 1) they have a $500K min (ouch!) & 2) SageOne has done way better. FWIW, you can write to them & ask for their deck, certainly instructive.

      Like

  5. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Hi – I will evaluate sageone if 100K, equity intelligence ( 50L now), Purnaartha, probably MOSWL. I will consider the relative option. Thats feasible. Malabar is out of reach for me. Here is my view in the order of prio.

    1. sageone ( if $100K) – Fixed fee option
    2. equity intelligence – 50 L – Fixed Fee Option ( they say fixed fee 2% and performance fee 10 on 10). Will stretch myself to 50L if needed.
    3. Purnartha – I tend to like their approach. Concentrated though. Little bit of work to do myself.
    4. MOSWL – Like their history, conservative approach to save investment and decent returns if not the highest. 25L is a good place to start.

    What is your view on fixed fee VS performance fee ? Also what is FWIW ???

    Thanks
    Bijay

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      1. Sageone fixed fee is only avail through their domestic PMS, not through their US fund offering, which I believe is variable+fixed.
      2. thanks for the update, sad to see 3% fixed gone & min upped to 50L.

      FWIW = For What Its Worth.
      If you expect substantial absolute returns, fixed fees lowers costs for you over the long run, but may hurt you in a few down years. Overall, my take is one is better off with fixed.

      As a US citizen, be aware that if you go through domestic PMS under your name, they may not accept or the same minimums may not apply.

      Like

  6. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Hello – Just providing update. Spoke to Equity Intelligence – Found them very arrogant. They do not want to listen, do not have the patience to listen. Probably Mr Porinju is a good guy but not his team. Their AUM has increased so they probably do not need more funds to manage.

    Purnaartha – Good customer service and need minimum 50 Laks.

    Spoke to Sageone US options – 100K investment with Fixed Fee plus performance. Risk we carry is the currency fluctuation and they do not hedge it. Good for US Citizen taxation standpoint.

    I found another one shepherdhill investments. They are new to this 3 years into the business, good returns minimum 25 Lakh investments. No fixed fee only performance based after a hurdle rate of 6 %. They carry the US fund option of minimu 100K also. but they somehow recomended to go with India investment option through someone if possible. Relatively small but promising.

    What you think about – doing it on your own based on the recommendation from firms such as http://researchandranking.com/ or similar , create your own portfolio. Pay minimum for advise and use your own brain.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Re: Equity Intelligence – I’d say ignore the data point of experience with junior/mid-level employee. They are not the stewards of your capital, and likely have no skin in the game. If you select EI, do so based on their track record, and whether you like Porinju to be (one of) your fund managers or not. Ignore the intermediaries.

      Shepherd’s hill is too new, started PMS only in Mar 2015. Also, while they follow the Buffett partnership model of fees (good, and rare), not convinced from their blog/writings that they have the depth or experience of say a Rohit Chauhan. Maybe worth considering after 5+ years.

      Going on your own is the worst of the options if you have a job in the US. Portfolio management is, or will become, a full time job on its own. You will not sleep well if you end up constructing your portfolio on your own as many ‘pitches’ or ‘stories’ will appeal to you and soon you may end up ‘managing’ 20-30 stocks. There are a ton of portfolio ‘maintenance’ related issues to keep thinking about, and you will only get quarterly updates (at best) from the advisories; in between the act of patiently waiting will spur you to make new sell/buy decisions (activity bias). This ‘do it yourself’ option is ok to manage a small corpus, but perhaps not for a large chunk of your networth. Pay minimum comes at price – your lack of peace & quiet. Give this responsibility to someone else and have a life (my opinion)

      Like

    • MillionDollarDreams says:

      Hi Bijay,

      Did you get a chance to talk to Vallum? It is one of the best PMS funds in India as you guys know. I spoke to them few weeks back and they were still accepting 25L as minimum capital. I’m workin with them to set up my PMS account!

      Like

      • Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

        Hi – Yes I did and like their approach and thinking. I am initiating to set up account with them. Thanks for checking and letting me know.

        Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Thanks Ilesh.
      Shepherd’s hill is too new, started PMS only in Mar 2015.
      They are too new/young to even be compared to the ones I’ve compiled on this page.

      Performance apart, you need to develop conviction that the thought process & ability of your fund manager(s) is “superior”. So study more than recent performance. Find interviews, read their essays/newsletters etc.

      Also, while they follow the Buffett partnership model of fees (good, and rare), not convinced from their blog/writings that they have the depth or experience of say a Rohit Chauhan or Jatin (neither of whom have a PMS at present). Maybe worth considering Shepherd’s hill after 5+ years of performance under a PMS structure.

      Like

  7. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Thanks. I appreciate your insight. Is there a way to have a quick chat ? I am almost certain to invest but since i am starting this it will be good to have a quick chat. Thanks for your clarifications and quick response so far. I completely agree with you on and not lose sleep for not managing the portfolio by myself and have “life”. Is it OKay if you can send your contact number i would like to have a quick chat. ( bkm.ngr@gmail.com). Should not take more than 15 mins.

    Thanks Bijay

    Like

  8. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Just wanted to get some more clarification on sageone US option. As this is managed as a passive fund a) do we need to pay taxes on notional gains every year in USA ( like mutual funds investments in India b) K-1 form is a declaration until we sale to IRS or does this imply tax implications every year.

    Also can you please help understand sageone AIF option, how this is different from PMS.

    Sorry if these are simple questions.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Dear Bijay
      K-1s will declare any capital gains you’ve earned each year and IRS will collect on these as applicable each year.

      On AIF mechanics I’ll send you something via email, but best if you reach out directly to SageOne IR and get your queries resolved. In general no question is too simple, and more so in matters of money better to ask a thousand times till one is clear enough to be able to explain the same to a layman.

      Like

  9. CrazyLittleRowling says:

    Hi,
    This is article really breaks down the very details of PMS. Thanks for writing a very good article to break the myths. Coming to my question, do you think it is still good time (Jul-27-2017), with nifty hovering around 10K magical figure and nifty having a historical high PE of 25+? Also how do these PMS people manage the portfolio given the current situation? Do they churn the portfolio during market shocks by putting them into debt fund or something? Please enlighten me on these.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      You’re welcome!
      Great question. AFAIK, none of these PMS managers use debt funds – it is either Equities or Cash. Some, like SIMPL may simply keep a very high cash component (40-50%+) & choose to not invest if there is a dearth of opportunity for them. Others may keep 20% cash buffer & invest in what they see as undervalued business (yes, even at Nifty 10K there are opportunities).

      Is it a ‘good time’? One can never say. If you do have a 5+ year time horizon (and know that you will act patiently) then it may not be a ‘bad time’ – but you’ll only know for sure in hindsight.

      If 50L represents a very large % of your liquid funds then you could not go with a PMS & deploy some of the monies in one of the conservative mutual funds.

      It is true we are in a more heated environment at present, but not ‘insane’ as yet – just tougher to find value than say 2-5 years ago. You could very well have low returns for a couple of years so please temper your expectations accordingly. There is no shortcut & no get rich quick scheme anywhere. You should plan mentally for 15-18% returns if you invest now – and wait 5+ years (stay invested, and add during corrections) to see how your manager(s) perform. This is true even for the excellent PMS managers listed on this page.

      Please consider taking the time to print & read this long, but very valuable set of insights from Howard Marks’ latest memo “There they go again” (July 2017) : https://www.oaktreecapital.com/docs/default-source/memos/there-they-go-again-again.pdf

      Liked by 1 person

  10. Sri says:

    Wonderful Compilation !
    PMS as a concept suits me – but the documents involved – agreements, power of attorney etc, seem to give sweeping powers for the fund manager to engage in leverage, derivatives etc that if misused can devastate an investor (especially if one recalls the history of rogue traders around ! Is this for real or am I just imagining things … How does one overcome this phobia wrt PMS ?
    Thanks!

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Sri, the actual agreement & the PoA is the binding (legal) contract which is the basis for you establishing formal trust with the fund manager. This is how a separately manager account works, where you hand over the discretionary authority for the fund / manager to purchase securities on your behalf, in Your demat account.

      None of the 4 or 5 fund managers on this page (as far as I know, please let me know if you find out otherwise) engage in leverage or derivatives. Best would be if you don’t take anyone’s word on this & ascertain for yourself – ask them directly & further – read your PMS agreement carefully.

      Like

  11. Sri says:

    Thanks for your response – yes I understand that. The PMS agreements are all SEBI templates. They give sweeping powers to engage in swaps, hedging, derivatives or leverage etc. Its a separate matter that they may not actually practice this – nevertheless, they retain the power via the agreements signed. Therefore I feel its a function of trust and confidence. When the times are rolling its fun. Its behavior during the bad times that is up for judgement !

    Like

  12. Slow Pokey says:

    Hi, Excellent compilation on PMS companies.

    What is your opinion of Equirus? Is their track record in PMS decent enough?

    I was thinking of investing in Equity Intelligence when they bumped up the minimum to 50 lakhs. So I am looking at PMS companies which allow 25 lakhs as the investment and someone recommended Equirus.

    Ram

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Ram,
      Viraj Mehta is a bright young man & quite promising (has also worked with ValueQuest which is run by Prof. Bakshi & Thakkar).

      That said, Equirius is not an established fund. I wouldn’t touch anything without a 5+ year track record. Viraj, for example may well be a good stock picker but managing the risk and return on dozens of PMS accounts is actually a herculean task. Portfolio construction is hard. This is why one needs to set some minimum period of time over which the observation is done.

      The final filter in this case is : last I studied them they had a 1C min.

      Liked by 1 person

  13. vikas rana says:

    This is such a great compilation, very informational..readers contributing as well 🙂

    Would it be possible to compare “actual/net” investor return since all of these have performance or fixed fees? That will a good test/comparison.

    Thanks again, great job.

    Liked by 1 person

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Thanks Vikas..

      Indeed that could be a good comparison, except – it is hard to get absolute performance data for all. You may have to reach out & try but imo – typically once the IR team or fund manager decides what goes public & what stays confidential, it stays that way.

      Like

  14. Vikas Rana says:

    As you know, what matters is “investor return” at end of the day. It can be just ballpark number..even if off by 2-3 %..it is ok for 30-50% returns :-). A disclaimer can be given in the end for not having 100% accuracy.

    The hypothetical net returns can be calculated. I mean we know the total return and annual/performance fee, these 2-3 numbers are good enough. It will really help your readers..additionally some of these lower 25-30% return options can be compared with a good subscription service (of course one has to be disciplined with Buy/Sell decisions).

    If I’m motivated some day with enough moolah :-)..will try.

    Easy to get distracted or carried away by total returns or news like 100 baggers 🙂 what matters is total portfolio return..not some individual stock run. Each great/good investor will have some multibaggers..and failures too.

    Your blog is unique and will be of great help for many investors.

    Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Vikas, agree entirely. In fact the reported PMS #s in the tables above correspond to “net” (i.e investor returns).

      What is harder to get are the pre-fee returns. PMSs can offer more than 1 fee structure to clients so in a sense only they have the ability to compute a true “pre-fee” return.As you rightly point out, what matters at the end are “investor returns”, which I’ve compiled on the page.

      Like

  15. shekharpylur says:

    Excellent compilation-very useful. Few questions which has been bothering:
    1. What will be investor’s net return after all taxes/ fees/profit share/demat charges/1% brokerage fees etc are deducted. I am hearing stories that net return could be 15-20%
    2. How safe it is. What happens if something happens to the fund manager?
    3. I guess we need to open a separate demat account and give them the mandate which is linked to a PIS account.

    Appreciate your feedback

    Liked by 1 person

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Shekhar, thank you.
      1. The PMS returns of the 4-5 funds I’ve compiled above, are NET returns. This includes their mgmt fees, profit share, brokerage related charges etc..
      It does not include taxes which are always the investor’s responsibility. Typically, at least 75-80% of the capital gains are long-term in nature. So if the fund manager ended up selling something(s) before a year’s holding period, you would naturally have to pay the short-term tax on that [quite straightforward]
      I don’t know about the stories you’re hearing of course, but I can speak for myself –
      I’d be perfectly happy with 15-20% of “net” returns from any of these excellent fund managers.
      The important thing is conviction in their ability, trust in their integrity, and comfort from alignment of interests.
      2. In regards to safety – this compilation should not be construed as a blanket endorsement for all PMSs, just the narrow subset of those who follow a value investing focus, and from that subset – these 4-5 above. You always take fund manager risk. If something happens to the fund manager, your assets don’t disappear (as they’re always in your name). Your “relationship” may not make any sense going forward so you could simply transfer your assets to another fund / manager etc.
      3. Correct – except, you don’t typically have to do any of this, the fund simplifies & does this for you. You give your KYC info to them & that gets their Operations personnel started.

      Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Bishan, Vijay Kedia does not run a PMS or have a retail fund as far as I know.
      Sanjay Bakshi also does not run a PMS, he runs a Limited Partnership, not open to Residents of India.
      Basant Maheshwari’s PMS is only a year or so old, I believe & 35% 1st year returns, 1Cr min. Old Bridge, similarly – is very new, I think inception in Aug 2016. Concept of “Returns” doesn’t really apply unless based on a sufficiently long period. I think up ~8% Aug’16 – Mar’17.

      Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi GSomani,
      You are correct about the returns, around 25-26% since 2002. These are v.good returns no doubt and over a long, 15 year period.

      But is Alchemy a value-oriented fund / PMS?
      Who is the fund managed by? The “Team” shows Rakesh Jhunjhunwala, Lashit & Hiren, but the smaller ticket-size fund (they have two, one 50L, one 300L) is actually managed by one Chandraprakash Padiyar. What do you/we know about him? Is there any written/oral material we could use to help us understand their thought process? (I have no such information) Assuming you do find out all this & after reviewing, you are comfortable with him & his approach, you could consider them.

      Like

  16. Janubhai Panchal says:

    Hi, Excellent compilation-very useful. I have Motilal Oswal PMS ( Value+ and NTDOP). Performance are good but not as Equity Intelligent or Vellum. Hence I need to switch over to another.

    Can you give me your opinion ?I have 50 L ( Or Max 1CR) to invest.
    I like ..1) Vellum ( Manish Bhandari) 2) Equity Intelligent 3) SageOne

    Please note that, I am ready for higher risk.

    And Can you guide me about Aequitas Investment Consultancy? I think they have min 10CR;

    Once again thanks for nice article

    Liked by 1 person

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Janubhai, I wouldn’t leave Motilal Oswal if I were already a client, least of all for “return shopping”. One has to respect a) the Portfolio Manager & b) the institution. Both are of very high quality.

      About Aequitas. Their investment philosophy has 3 pillars, one of which boldly proclaims “multi-bagger approach”. There are many “get-rich-quick” schemes & services on the web, but this is the first I’ve seen which wants to work only with a 10C ticket size. I would run a mile from this firm. For me, personally, to even consider giving my family’s savings to someone else to manage, I have to know about, and respect the personnel at many levels. More, I have to have faith & confidence in their abilities & their focus on risk management.

      On setting return expectations, please consider reading this: https://valueinvestingfundsindia.wordpress.com/how-to-manage-your-return-expectations/

      Like

  17. Janubhai Panchal says:

    Thanks Mr for replying and your valuable feedback.
    Can you told me your recommendation about 1) Vellum ( Manish Bhandari) 2) Equity Intelligent 3) SageOne 4) Purnartha Advisory PMS ( Rahul Rathi).

    I have made my investment since 1992. And I can invest up to 1C now.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Please accept my salutations for the longevity and commitment of involvement in equities through all those difficult periods from 1992. You probably belong to the 0.01% amongst us retail investors in terms of good temperament.

      (Replied to your email separately)

      Like

  18. Pankaj Gulati says:

    Hi, one of the best article on PMS, that I have seen and at a very appropriate time. Just next week, I was planning to invest in Alchemy PMS – my Investment advisor has been trying to convince me on this and also on Karvy Excel PMS.

    After reading this article, I am not sure if I would go ahead – maybe I am now confused also. I have collected most of the 25L for PMS. What to do with it now? I already have 1Cr invested in Mutual Funds (60/40 split between Equity and Debt). Where else to invest for a reasonable 12%~15% tax free return?

    I am 61 years and can have this 25L invested for 5+ years. Any suggestions?

    Liked by 1 person

  19. santosh kumar says:

    Thank you. Completely read your interesting article and the comments section too which is quite engaging discussions.
    I am Indian resident(not staying in US) and looking to invest 50L. I have been following these PMS services for some time and had an equal respect for all three of them.
    But to invest my savings, I would need to chose One out of the 3.
    Can I seek your word of advice about 1) Vellum ( Manish Bhandari) 2) Equity Intelligent 3) SageOne. Which one is good bet to my 10 years horizon investment needs.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Santosh,
      you are welcome. SageOne can be safely removed from your list as their Min is now 2C.
      As you may understand, I cannot advise you to pick one over the other.
      You will have to make that final call & stick with that decision.
      My intent has been to provide interested folks with the required context, background and understanding – before they make up their mind on how their family monies should be invested. My hope is that this page achieves that intention.

      Here’s a very minor point of difference in reporting : EI sends daily valuation emails, Vallum once a quarter (can be once a month if you request but definitely not daily). The longer the wait, the more it teaches you to be patient; more, infrequent reporting is actually helpful for you to think of the PMS as being in truly ‘automatic’ mode. They’re doing the work for you; just like businesses don’t report more frequently than every quarter, there is no reason PMS should have to report more frequently.
      This minor difference isn’t material, but may affect how you react. Some people are unable to not open a daily valuation report & this keeps a constant ticking clock; you could of course create a filter and make such emails skip your inbox entirely. Important thing is peace of mind. whatever approach you take.

      Like

  20. Saravanan says:

    Hi,
    I just have no words to express my gratitude- original article, on reading your responses, and patience you have to personally respond. Great !
    I learnt and gained confidence in PMS from your discussions. Thank you
    I am just about to begin investing in PMS with 25L.
    can you please spare your thoughts on Kotak’s PMS services and I am in the process of deciding it between Motilal Oswal and Kotak
    Or any other PMS , I need to look at before making the decision.
    Best Regards

    Saravanan

    Like

  21. Senthil Nathan says:

    Thanks for the Wornderful Writeup.

    I am interested in PMS Schemes where the Portfolio Manager and Investment Team are also invested ( Skin in the Game).I see that you have mentioned about Ravi Purohit invested in SIMPL pms.Can you please let me know about the source of this information ?.I am unable get this info from SEBI Website.Thanks in advance for the help

    Like

  22. Gokulan says:

    Shared all possible points in PMS as well into stock market. For beginners like me kick start knowledge for choosing between stocks or PMS. Thanks for sharing.
    I opened my demat Ac with ABM and equire about their PMS.
    Wondering is there any reason Aditya Birla Core and Satellite PMS not considered. They accepting 25L with 2% management fees and other 2% monthly for year.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Gokulan,

      you are welcome. As I’ve outlined above, my intent has been to find the best PMS options which satisfy many criteria – some of which are 1) have a value approach, 2) you can find out something about the fund manager(s) either through their interviews, or writings or letters 3) have at least a 5-year track record (ideally longer), 4) some sense of the alignment of interests etc.
      You are of course welcome to pursue any PMS that meets your own criteria; this page is not meant to advertise the above PMS options but rather to list those funds/options which met my own subjective criteria – in the hope that it may be of use to others who have similar filters.

      Note to future readers: In general, it may not be helpful to ask why XYZ PMS is not on this page – unless of course, you feel it meets at least the above 4 criteria. You are invited to do your own diligence & see if it does.

      For example, one reader mentioned to me offline a PMS which did meet these criteria, which I hadn’t considered. This is the SureFin PMS of Amitabh Singhi. It has a strong track-record (25% CAGR) over a long period of time (16 years). I didn’t study this because the info was simply not available – it was buried behind the SureFin client-only site. I haven’t put it up as an ‘option’ here because of the steep minimum (2.5C) which automatically shuts out a large # of people.

      This page intends to be ‘realistic’ – so SageOne & SureFin are not listed as real ‘options’; If the page were to be agnostic to minimum investment amounts they would surely be included as amongst the best PMSs with a value approach.

      Like

  23. Pradeep says:

    Hi Guys,

    Can you please guide on which would be the best option to choose in the below two PMS compensation methods :

    Option I

    · A flat management fee of 1.5%PA will be charged proportionately on a monthly basis on the funds managed, (NAV)
    · A performance based fee of 15%, computed above a pre-agreed hurdle of 10%. This is in proportion of the profit earned over and above this predetermined threshold return.

    Option II
    · A flat management fee of 1.5% as agreed by the client will be charged proportionately on a monthly basis on the funds managed,
    · A performance based fee of 20%, computed as per a proportion of the profit earned over and above relevant index (BSE Midcap in our case) is charged.

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Pradeep,

      there is no ‘best’, it boils down to what your own preference and expectations are.

      If you set the performance fee to be based on outperformance relative to the BSE Midcap, you would give away a larger share of the incremental profits (20%). The alternative is to set outperformance relative to a fixed, index-independent hurdle rate (10%), and part with a lower share (15%) of incremental profits.

      There is no right answer; no amount of excel modeling will lead anywhere because to determine one option is cheaper / better than the other you will need to know the future with certainty.

      Like

  24. Ajay says:

    Hi
    Really good PMS article

    So which PMS service you have decided for yourself
    Please share online or offline and how is your experience so far
    Many Thanks

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Ajay,

      glad you found it useful..

      My intent has been to provide interested folks with the required context, background and understanding of these PMS options – before they make up their mind on how their family monies should be invested. My hope is that this page achieves that intention.

      I can share with you this much : there is no “experience” to talk about – unless by “experience” you meant “returns so far”.
      If you meant “returns so far”, please consider the page How to manage your return expectations

      If you meant the experience of account setup etc – it is just administrative. Vallum is a little slower to respond (if you have interest, you may need to be patient)

      Once you invest, nothing happens. Everything goes quiet. The fund manager(s) start allocating your capital and you start getting statements at the fund’s reporting frequency. No excitement, no news flow, no info on why some decision was made etc..

      Then the real test of “long-term” quiet patience starts.

      Like

      • Anujan says:

        Hi,

        Appreciate your thoroughness and articulation of content specially the criteria for shortlisting. I have been following this thread for the past month or so. It was my starting point into PMS reviews and options. I thank you for your efforts and hard-work in reviewing through the mountain of data.

        I have been trying to decide between Equity Intelligence and Vallum India Discovery. Reviewing the above response, I am guessing this has been the PMS of choice. I have reviewed their material and the newsletters and find their philosophy in tune with my understanding & preference. However, I was unable to locate their disclosure document. I understand that Vallum India Discovery Fund is probably listed under the name Master Portfolio Services Ltd. The EI disclosure document states they have ~1200 or so clients at start of this year

        If you do not mind, I would like to further connect with you in this regard to discuss further as well. Do e-mail me if it is OK with you.

        Thanks.

        Like

  25. Pankaj Gulati says:

    Hi, I have almost finalised Motilal Oswal PMS – IOP and Value (split of 65/ 35). Hope the choice is right. It is for a 5 year horizon and they are accepting 25L.

    Regards..
    Pankaj Gulati

    Like

  26. Ravi Vasnani says:

    Hi,
    A very detailed and insightful article on PMS exactly what i was looking forward to. I had saved 25lakh for Eq Intelligence but got to know they had increased the cap to 50 lakhs. Based on your article Vallum and Motilal Oswal seem to be perfectly suited to my needs but am unable to choose between them. What do you have to say about the fees structure of both and if you had to bet a buck on either which would that PMS be??

    Like

    • Pankaj Gulati says:

      Hi, I have also narrowed down to Vallum India Discovery and Motilal Oswal IOP+Value, with a tilt towards Motilal, mainly due to (possibly) better market research capabilities and more experience and also I can make a mix of IOP (Mid Cap) and Value (Large Cap) to bring in some stability. Horizon is 5+ years. Also I find that Motilal has fixed Fee structure while Vallum is performance based. Based on my calculation, possibly a fixed fee structure is better – though I may stand corrected.
      Also I found that Motilal team to be more responsive – they contacted me, visited me within hours of sending an email. Have had several meetings thereafter, while Vallum is only on email, despite requesting a personal meeting, which I am still waiting for.

      Any suggestions – most welcome as I plan to invest in next one week.

      Thank you..

      Liked by 1 person

      • santosh says:

        I would say make decision purely based on investment capabilities of the PMS firm rather than how responsive they are to you. These are not firms with customer care skills and I don’t expect them to be. I had a very bad experience in communicating with one of the PMS listed here. Thanks to comments by author of this article , I went ahead and invested with the same PMS. I am happy with my decision post investment looking at their portfolio management capabilities & returns till now.

        Liked by 1 person

  27. Rajeev Gupta says:

    An excellent compilation of PMS schemes! It certainly has allowed eliminations and in the process come to good 2 PMS. MOSL has been invested into already late last year and so far the returns have been reasonable! I am looking at one more investment and came across ASK Wealth Advisors. Could you please guide with your views on their offerings (they have 3 distinct offerings though I found the top 10 stocks being 80% common between 3 offerings of course with different ratios). Thanks again!

    Like

  28. valueinvestingfundsindia says:

    Hi Rajeev, thank you..

    I have the highest respect for Mr. Bharat Shah, I’ve learned a lot from his various interviews & writings – and ASK does meet all my other criteria as well – it is a value-based PMS. However, I think of these PMSs as “large cap” (Median market cap ~ 60K crores, Wtd Av ~90K crores).

    The one to study first among their 3 options is the oldest one “Growth” – which has done 22% since Jan’01. In absolute return terms this is actually comparable to some of the HDFC / Kotak Mutual funds from that vintage. The point being – it is hard to create substantial “alpha” when you are taking 20+ large companies into your portfolio of ~25 companies.

    MOSWL & EI generated >26% & >32% over a comparable period; MOSWL has larger companies in its portfolio compared to EI which is almost exclusively in midcaps (a larger fishing pond). These 4/5 PMSs all tend to fish in the midcap space with a few rare stocks being large caps. Large caps do get under priced once in a while but not as often as midcaps.

    I would characterize ASK as a high-quality, value-based PMS product, though perhaps more accurately as a “Large-cap” PMS, and maybe more suited for investors who are already 60+.

    Like

  29. Ram G says:

    An excellent compilation and write-up of the PMS.
    Basant Maheshwari, though new to the PMS, has his past reputation to justify his record as a savvy investing mind. I was associated with him during his paid service days. Runs a concentrated PF, bets big and aims and mostly achieves doubling money in 3 years, Am sure his PMS must also be good.
    Can you throw some light on CARE PMS? Have heard good things about their returns, though they are low-profile and not much known.
    Thanks
    Ram

    Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Ram, thank you.
      True re: Mr. Maheshwari, though a past compilation of multi-bagger stocks does not mean (to me) great portfolio management skills. He is yet to be tested on this & the results to be available to the public after a few years. Maybe he managed his individual portfolio exceedingly well, but there is no data on this, naturally. The real question for me is how well has someone managed a large number of separately managed accounts (client monies). You are correct he runs a concentrated PF, but for various other reasons I don’t view him as a value investor & on his PMS as well as on the CARE PMS as well, please see above response to Gokulan on Sep 10th – that’s the lens through which I’ve tried to search.

      Like

  30. Gopal says:

    This is good article and I like the same and making my decision based on that – I have talk to 3 of them , My experience:

    Motial Oswal – Within 2 Day response and have good team to talk , shared all detailed whatever requested…Person came to personally meet – Had a amazing customer experience.

    Vallum – Good Team responded back and talk over phone very good manners..shared all details whatever requested.

    Equity Intelligence
    – Its seems they dont care much for new prospect
    – Not shared the all details like data from 2003 to 2008 [All Others company shared the same liek MO , Vallum , Birla Syn life , Kotak PMS] – I feel transparency should be their to show data to prospect to they can make right decision
    – I feel they are little Arrogant and they don’t know how to handle customer – Cutsomer expirence is not good – that’s my personal experience – “Jinni Sundrani” Client Relations Manager is the name of person whom I done call [Tech Team will be good but I think they should improve on this part to give time customer to share how they are different etc] – She said we dont compare etc

    Below is my thought :
    MO > Solid Fundamentals with satisfactory returns
    Vallum > Expect better returns – should give chance as his your tube video link which shared in above blog shared his point of view towards things – thats great what he did
    Equity Intelligence > Experience is bad , given lack of providing all details liek data from 2003 to till now – make me feel whats the issue to provide information – its good as its give transparency to end user and get more confidence.

    All my views are personal experience – everyone has their own perspective to see the things – Might be I am wrong – please use your own experience to evaluate.

    Thanks

    Liked by 1 person

  31. Ram G says:

    Did some mailing, talking with PMS providers – Vallum, SageOne, SIMPL. Also received the log in access from surefin. As someone mentioned surefin has done 25% cagr for the last 16 years. Impressive. The login access provides info about their style and approach. Good. Did not approach Eq Intelligence as somehow I am not in favour of Porinju’s style. (no offence here)
    Also did some digging intp Basant Maheshwari’s PMS. Understand he did dabble in some dud stocks in the beginning and now still runs a very concentrated PF with only 4/5 names. Heard that he returned an impressive number last year. All the PMS guys are quite forthcoming to have long discussion.

    Like

  32. Anna says:

    Hi,
    Thanks for the detailed PMS article, very useful including comments section. Do you know if SageOne currently accepts new clients for its India fund and what is the min USD investment?
    Thanks

    Like

  33. Rajib Basu says:

    Wonderful article. Cannot thank you enough. If 25L is the hard limit, I see the best options are limited between VALLIUM and MOSL, though if I have fun, I would have opted for EI. Is there any option to stagger the investment in PMS ?

    Liked by 1 person

      • Rajib Basu says:

        Thank you for your super quick response.
        I am wondering If my target CAGR is ~ 22-23% and i manage to pull 50L fund, I wonder
        1) 25L @ Vallum + 25L @ MOSWL
        or
        2) 50L @ EI
        would be prudent ?
        I have significant exposure to MF, where i expect 14-15% CAGR, so I guess 22% expectation for PMS is not unreasonable.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Pankaj Gulati says:

      Hi, I do not think that there is any option to stagger the investments. Need to start with minimum 25L. I had also zeroed in on the same two funds – Vallium and MOSWL. Finally decided MOSWL due to better returns and Mr. Ramdeo Aggarwal.

      Best of Luck..

      Liked by 1 person

  34. Bijay Kumar Mishra says:

    Hi Rajib

    The forum owner has done a great job in shortlisting the PMS options. All are good options to chose from. You might want to consider the thought process of the fund manager with yours and decide or just go by historical performance . its a decision you have to make for your hard earned money. Also please keep a minimum 5 plus year investment horizon. Also read “How to manage your return expectations” in this blog itself and i believe your expectations are in-line.

    I beleive SIMPL accepts 25L ticket but their fees are little higher than 50L ticket size. Please reach out to them and double check again.

    Good luck

    Liked by 2 people

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Thank you, Bijay.
      True re: SIMPL fee structure on the 25L ticket size.
      Rajib, this ‘thought process’ aspect that Bijay mentioned is a very important thing, and is almost the reason this page exists. Else summary ‘return tables’ would have sufficed.
      Since you mentioned “significant exposure to MF”, I would also ask you to consider
      ISSUES WITH MUTUAL FUNDS IN INDIA in the context of the MFs you own.

      Like

  35. Rajib Basu says:

    I got few updates.
    1) SIMPL now accepts only 50L, strictly.
    2) It seems Vallum also increased the ticket size to 50L, i got response from them accordingly.
    3) While talking to MOSL, it seems Trillion dollar opportunity is available for offering, but the executive are discouraging. Will dig further .
    Will share further detail as and when further detail will be available.
    Thank you.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Prasanth says:

      Hi Rajib Basu, did you get any new info? Why is MOSWL discouraging entry into NTDOP? I plan to invest 50L, splitting 25 each for their two options; my interaction with the manager of MOSWL was good. He was encouraging me to invest stating that 25% CAGR they have generated, in some areas they are not that open when I asked to show one of ther customers return statement etc..any new info pls share it will b useful for the members of this forum. A special thanks to the forum owner for doing a wonderful job.

      Liked by 1 person

      • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

        Thanks Prasanth. Btw, showing “one of their customer returns” is always a challenge.
        Which customers should they pick?
        Selection bias can work against them because showing something excellent can be interpreted as an advertisement to new clients.
        Next, client info is by default confidential – so if they share client reports with prospective clients they would have to anonymize the info (a pain/not trivial). Once it is anonymized, you as a prospective client may say “great return, but I need to see these belong to a real person – what is his/her name please?”, which the fund cannot reveal unless they have received an OK from those clients regarding disclosure of their names. Just want to point out the many issues involved in this context.

        Like

      • Pankaj Gulati says:

        Hi, I have also interacted with MOSWL team and they are very supportive. However, the returns are not commensurate with the market. It is on the lower side, conservative. The NTDOP fund has again been opened. Got this news last week. You can check on this.

        Like

  36. anup says:

    Hi,

    what is your opinion on Prabhudas Lilladhar and Geojit Financial Services?
    Would like to thank you for A very informative discussion.
    Regards,
    Anup

    Like

  37. AB says:

    Hi,

    Your site is a treasure trove. Pl accept my good wishes for sharing your knowledge and insights – the karma chameleon will sure color you gold 🙂

    I am an NRI and recently invested into MO PMS (it is 50L min for NRI’s). Should I stay with them for future investments or hedge by also buying into some of the other good PMS options mentioned in your blog. Focus or diversify ? I would appreciate your thoughts please.

    Liked by 1 person

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      Hi Ashish, thank you.
      MOSWL is a v.good option. I don’t think there is any need to ‘hedge’ per se.

      One trend that is visible is the increase in min ticket sizes for PMS offerings. SageOne is a case in point – a v.good option but – at 2C, a v.steep entry for most & as of Nov’17 closed temporarily to new monies.
      Vallum also went up from 25L to 50L recently, as did Porinju’s EI. All these 3 upsizes happened in 2017. If you have excess capital that you can allocate, it may be worth considering opening new accounts at these current minimums. If an upsize does happen later, you should not regret not having invested earlier with one or more fund when you could. Each of these funds have a different approach to investing (as outlined in the page above), so you could consider your excess savings as being invested by a different set of eyes/styles.

      On setting return expectations, please consider reading this: https://valueinvestingfundsindia.wordpress.com/how-to-manage-your-return-expectations/
      As you are an NRI, and likely have a higher absolute corpus of excess savings due to non-INR currency, pls also consider https://valueinvestingfundsindia.wordpress.com/the-purpose-of-money/

      Like

    • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

      If you are looking to truly understand what kind of businesses they invest in, your best bet is to contact them directly and ask them for their most recent deck. It usually profiles past investments. If you are looking for investment ideas from their existing portfolio(s), you’re out of luck. SageOne for example holds info on their current investments very tightly (and rightfully so), Vallum discusses themes (but not stocks) once a year in their annual letter and SIMPL never discusses positions publicly. EI (Porinju) as you may know sometimes discusses holdings on interviews. Otherwise, the only cases where data becomes publicly available is if (their) holding crosses 1%, at which point the next quarterly updates on BSE/NSE would show their % holding.
      On a related note, see http://www.chaiwithpabrai.com/blog/beyond-buffett-how-to-build-wealth-copying-9-other-value-stock-pickers
      and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXRNH9VfhA
      RateStar.in has a ‘top investors’ section. Also see Trendlyne.

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      • Selvaraj Rayan says:

        First of all Thanks for the immediate response. I have been reading about value investment for more than 8 years and mainly focusing in US market. Off late, I have focused on Indian market and found your blog very useful. Thank you for sharing valuable information. As you pointed out, Integrity is paramount in trusting PMS manager coupled with his investment philosophy.

        Mohnish often talks about cloning investment style…If people have bought the companies after Buffet and Munger bought it (after reading quarterly report) investors could have easily beaten the market by wide margin. if one decided to clone, clone the best…

        I was wondering if these PMS publish quarterly report why can’t people just clone them….but it seems these PMS are tight lip persons…

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      • valueinvestingfundsindia says:

        Hi Selvaraj, you are right.
        Btw, AlphaIdeas has a very reasonably priced product “Investor Wisdom” that may be of interest to you. CapitalMind.in also does something similar – the “Big Whales” report. I’ve used these in the past for ideas (see my Mar 2016 ‘worked-on’ version)

        What Mohnish recommends is easier said than done (at least for me); Even if you do get high quality data to mirror, it requires a high degree of faith & conviction to execute. What % of our net worth should one allocate to one such idea, and what is the right price to enter? Mohnish tries to simplify, but if you’ve been reading on these subjects for several years, it is hard to take a position in anything without substantial independent research, the very opposite of what he suggests. You’d want to do more, go a step ahead, and that’s when the effort/time to construct a ‘shamelessly-cloned’ portfolio becomes unsustainable. To me, these ‘whale portfolios’ etc (even the RJ site scours the web for this info) are useful just as an FYI.. to try & learn from the sidelines.

        Hard for seasoned readers and curious types to commit a meaningful amount of capital without the original thought processes that built all that conviction.

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  38. Dhruv says:

    Hello, this is the first time I’ve come across your blog. I just read this article and I really liked it. The articles looks very well researched and I also liked how you’ve included links to related information. Thanks very much for sharing this! Is there a way to subscribe to your blog so I can directly get your new blogposts as email reminders in my email inbox?

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  39. Devendra Mishra says:

    Massive thanks for sharing your wisdom in such a cohesive and clear manner. This is an excellent blog post I recently came across with great degree of depth and clarity, which I find of immense value and very helpful on the subject.

    I will be grateful for your advice on PMS I am considering to streamline and optimise my investments. I am 40Y old NRI and invested in MF and direct equities in UK, HK and India but I invested quite randomly by self learning, though I have not made major losses, but upside could have been better (opportunity loss for sure), and therefore thinking to avail a professionally managed PMS rather than doing it myself. My portfolio size would be approx Rs. 50L, however the approach that I am keen to take is to start with 25L and top it gradually in 1-3 years (upto 1Cr).

    I have recently learnt about other PMS like EI, Sageone, Vallum etc on your blog and yet to find out the details and criteria etc.

    Separately, I am told that an NRI can not have more than one PINS account, so this looks like a limitation that NRI can avail only one PMS and can not split their portfolio between 2 or more. Appreciate your views on this as well.

    Once again, BIG thanks and highly appreciate your good work.

    Kind regards,
    Devendra

    Like

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